{"id":1866,"date":"2025-10-03T13:28:21","date_gmt":"2025-10-03T13:28:21","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.furman.edu\/academics\/tocqueville-program\/?post_type=furman-update&#038;p=1866"},"modified":"2025-10-03T13:50:12","modified_gmt":"2025-10-03T13:50:12","slug":"interview-with-mark-lilla-democracy-tocqueville-and-the-will-to-ignorance","status":"publish","type":"furman-update","link":"https:\/\/www.furman.edu\/academics\/tocqueville-program\/lectures\/interview-with-mark-lilla-democracy-tocqueville-and-the-will-to-ignorance\/","title":{"rendered":"Interview with Mark Lilla: Democracy, Tocqueville, and the Will to Ignorance"},"content":{"rendered":"<p data-start=\"401\" data-end=\"820\">By Elizabeth L&#8217;Arrivee<\/p>\n<p data-start=\"401\" data-end=\"820\">In September 2025, the Tocqueville Center hosted Columbia University professor and noted public intellectual <strong>Dr. Mark Lilla<\/strong> for the Walters Memorial Lecture and <em data-start=\"562\" data-end=\"576\">On Discourse<\/em> series. Following his talks, <strong>Dr. Elizabeth L\u2019Arriv\u00e9e<\/strong>, Writer and Content Editor for the Tocqueville Center, sat down with Professor Lilla for an in-depth interview about Tocqueville, the state of American democracy, and his forthcoming book.<\/p>\n<p data-start=\"401\" data-end=\"820\"><img decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter size-large wp-image-1877 lazyload\" data-src=\"https:\/\/www.furman.edu\/academics\/tocqueville-program\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/67\/2025\/10\/Screenshot-2025-10-03-at-9.29.23-AM-1024x682.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"1024\" height=\"682\" data-srcset=\"https:\/\/www.furman.edu\/academics\/tocqueville-program\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/67\/2025\/10\/Screenshot-2025-10-03-at-9.29.23-AM-1024x682.png 1024w, https:\/\/www.furman.edu\/academics\/tocqueville-program\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/67\/2025\/10\/Screenshot-2025-10-03-at-9.29.23-AM-768x511.png 768w, https:\/\/www.furman.edu\/academics\/tocqueville-program\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/67\/2025\/10\/Screenshot-2025-10-03-at-9.29.23-AM-1536x1023.png 1536w, https:\/\/www.furman.edu\/academics\/tocqueville-program\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/67\/2025\/10\/Screenshot-2025-10-03-at-9.29.23-AM-512x341.png 512w, https:\/\/www.furman.edu\/academics\/tocqueville-program\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/67\/2025\/10\/Screenshot-2025-10-03-at-9.29.23-AM-1280x852.png 1280w, https:\/\/www.furman.edu\/academics\/tocqueville-program\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/67\/2025\/10\/Screenshot-2025-10-03-at-9.29.23-AM.png 1742w\" data-sizes=\"(max-width: 1024px) 100vw, 1024px\" src=\"data:image\/svg+xml;base64,PHN2ZyB3aWR0aD0iMSIgaGVpZ2h0PSIxIiB4bWxucz0iaHR0cDovL3d3dy53My5vcmcvMjAwMC9zdmciPjwvc3ZnPg==\" style=\"--smush-placeholder-width: 1024px; --smush-placeholder-aspect-ratio: 1024\/682;\" \/><\/p>\n<h2 data-start=\"822\" data-end=\"846\">Elizabeth L\u2019Arriv\u00e9e<\/h2>\n<p data-start=\"847\" data-end=\"1174\">Last night you spoke about Tocqueville and how his audience for\u00a0<em>Democracy in America <\/em>was his fellow Frenchmen. At the very beginning of <em data-start=\"958\" data-end=\"980\">Democracy in America<\/em>, he remarks that in France, sentiments and ideas had become divorced: people\u2019s feelings and their thinking were completely disconnected. Then he comes to America and sees them somehow united.<\/p>\n<p data-start=\"1176\" data-end=\"1343\">If Tocqueville were visiting America today, what do you think he would say? Would he still see sentiments and ideas united here\u2014or have they broken apart in America?<\/p>\n<h2 data-start=\"1345\" data-end=\"1360\">Mark Lilla<\/h2>\n<p data-start=\"1361\" data-end=\"1565\">Well, on the one hand, when you\u2019re abroad and a group of Americans is in a restaurant, you recognize them immediately. It\u2019s not just the language, it\u2019s not just the clothing. It\u2019s a kind of comportment.<\/p>\n<p data-start=\"1567\" data-end=\"1966\"><img decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignleft wp-image-1868 lazyload\" data-src=\"https:\/\/www.furman.edu\/academics\/tocqueville-program\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/67\/2025\/10\/Screenshot-2025-10-03-at-9.14.29-AM-681x1024.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"300\" height=\"451\" data-srcset=\"https:\/\/www.furman.edu\/academics\/tocqueville-program\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/67\/2025\/10\/Screenshot-2025-10-03-at-9.14.29-AM-681x1024.png 681w, https:\/\/www.furman.edu\/academics\/tocqueville-program\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/67\/2025\/10\/Screenshot-2025-10-03-at-9.14.29-AM-511x768.png 511w, https:\/\/www.furman.edu\/academics\/tocqueville-program\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/67\/2025\/10\/Screenshot-2025-10-03-at-9.14.29-AM-768x1154.png 768w, https:\/\/www.furman.edu\/academics\/tocqueville-program\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/67\/2025\/10\/Screenshot-2025-10-03-at-9.14.29-AM-341x512.png 341w, https:\/\/www.furman.edu\/academics\/tocqueville-program\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/67\/2025\/10\/Screenshot-2025-10-03-at-9.14.29-AM.png 772w\" data-sizes=\"(max-width: 300px) 100vw, 300px\" src=\"data:image\/svg+xml;base64,PHN2ZyB3aWR0aD0iMSIgaGVpZ2h0PSIxIiB4bWxucz0iaHR0cDovL3d3dy53My5vcmcvMjAwMC9zdmciPjwvc3ZnPg==\" style=\"--smush-placeholder-width: 300px; --smush-placeholder-aspect-ratio: 300\/451;\" \/><\/p>\n<p data-start=\"1567\" data-end=\"1966\">I once wrote about this by imagining you\u2019re a graduate student in France. You\u2019re trying very hard to pass. You\u2019ve learned the language, you\u2019re trying to speak without an accent, you sit in caf\u00e9s reading the newspaper. And then a group of Americans comes in. They\u2019re very loud. They ask the waiter\u2019s first name. They introduce themselves by their first names. By the end, they want to trade emails.<\/p>\n<p data-start=\"1968\" data-end=\"2148\">If you\u2019re missing home, it\u2019s a relief. If you\u2019re trying to pass, you\u2019re ashamed. But in either case, you vibrate with what\u2019s going on with them. It\u2019s not some alien thing to you.<\/p>\n<p data-start=\"2150\" data-end=\"2383\">So in that way, I think if you look at basic, nonpartisan sentiments about democracy \u2014 equality, informality, everyone thinking they understand everything, politicians being mocked for pomposity \u2014 those sentiments are still shared.<\/p>\n<p data-start=\"2385\" data-end=\"2952\">The breakdown, I think, is not in political principles but in recognition: really different ways of life. Everything from how you comport yourself, how you take care of your body, the food you eat, whether you engage your children in conversation at the dinner table. It turns out that\u2019s crucial for intellectual achievement. Studies show children in talkative families are more articulate. In working-class families where \u201cparents know best\u201d and there isn\u2019t much conversation, children are less articulate and tend to withdraw when challenged by more fluent peers.<\/p>\n<p data-start=\"2954\" data-end=\"3211\">Even the sports we watch differ \u2014 the tennis set versus the wrestling set. When all those things get added up, I think there is a breakdown in shared sentiment that spills over into politics, rather than political sentiments themselves having disappeared.<\/p>\n<p data-start=\"3213\" data-end=\"3238\">That\u2019s the long answer.<\/p>\n<h2 data-start=\"3240\" data-end=\"3264\">Elizabeth L\u2019Arriv\u00e9e<\/h2>\n<p data-start=\"3265\" data-end=\"3476\">Let me follow up. In your restaurant example, Americans would still be recognizably American. But have we reached the point where being of a certain class of American is more defining than Americanness itself?<\/p>\n<h2 data-start=\"3478\" data-end=\"3493\">Mark Lilla<\/h2>\n<p data-start=\"3494\" data-end=\"3507\">I think so.<\/p>\n<p data-start=\"3509\" data-end=\"3724\">Certain things still distinguish us compared to other countries \u2014 we drive, we speak loudly in restaurants, all that. But if you isolate Americans and compare today to 30 or 40 years ago, there\u2019s a big difference.<\/p>\n<p data-start=\"3726\" data-end=\"4020\">When there were only three main television networks, everyone watched the same shows \u2014 cowboy shows, sitcoms. Whether you had a college degree or not, you probably ate meatloaf and canned peas. Food wasn\u2019t a big class marker. Eisenhower\u2019s dinner wasn\u2019t much different from a factory worker\u2019s.<\/p>\n<p data-start=\"4022\" data-end=\"4299\">That\u2019s no longer true. The Clinton example is instructive. Bill Clinton was a moderate Democrat, but the reaction against him was fierce. Part of it was cultural. Bill and Hillary seemed part of a new \u201cyuppie\u201d class. They spoke about feminism and sex in ways that felt alien.<\/p>\n<p data-start=\"4301\" data-end=\"4530\">The same thing with Obama \u2014 brewing beer in the White House, joking about arugula prices, shopping at Whole Foods. These were signals of a different class style. So in my lifetime, American life has fractured along those lines.<\/p>\n<h2 data-start=\"4532\" data-end=\"4556\">Elizabeth L\u2019Arriv\u00e9e<\/h2>\n<p data-start=\"4557\" data-end=\"4630\">Would you like to share a bit with our audience about your latest book, <span id=\"productTitle\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Ignorance-Bliss-Wanting-Not-Know\/dp\/B0DTQNPP43\/ref=sr_1_1?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.--R7C0EiYdPUQFPdlBi4GNpQrO0hJbkEw4w7PaMhrEZk6yvdVpKaW8jvaqjsGXrhR-COKI3V8Rlf8cnCszjuqexT9Mt3gf24pon-yumtlbY1o0YqSihW1MTeUfbQDMz3nzLxcK0NuDnmxERy_DPJFMSonAnlpsP-DKATzjWc-g00VGh2of4vZKHS-1DtWC7ky3CuYX_LdBgJyz6EqXNBZQssYILEBpeQxbXh64EN_YI.KoccuTYOQVS1T6vRQdy8BiyE3hrRcdt7z4nZPfimcXU&amp;dib_tag=se&amp;keywords=mark+lilla&amp;qid=1759496411&amp;sr=8-1\"><em>Ignorance and Bliss: On Wanting Not to Know<\/em><\/a>?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p data-start=\"4557\" data-end=\"4630\"><img decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright wp-image-1867 size-full lazyload\" data-src=\"https:\/\/www.furman.edu\/academics\/tocqueville-program\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/67\/2025\/10\/Screenshot-2025-10-03-at-9.01.36-AM.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"400\" height=\"602\" data-srcset=\"https:\/\/www.furman.edu\/academics\/tocqueville-program\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/67\/2025\/10\/Screenshot-2025-10-03-at-9.01.36-AM.png 400w, https:\/\/www.furman.edu\/academics\/tocqueville-program\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/67\/2025\/10\/Screenshot-2025-10-03-at-9.01.36-AM-340x512.png 340w\" data-sizes=\"(max-width: 400px) 100vw, 400px\" src=\"data:image\/svg+xml;base64,PHN2ZyB3aWR0aD0iMSIgaGVpZ2h0PSIxIiB4bWxucz0iaHR0cDovL3d3dy53My5vcmcvMjAwMC9zdmciPjwvc3ZnPg==\" style=\"--smush-placeholder-width: 400px; --smush-placeholder-aspect-ratio: 400\/602;\" \/><\/p>\n<h2 data-start=\"4632\" data-end=\"4647\">Mark Lilla<\/h2>\n<p data-start=\"4648\" data-end=\"4786\">Sure! This is a book that\u2019s been in the background for 25 years while I was doing other things. It comes partly from personal experience.<\/p>\n<p data-start=\"4788\" data-end=\"5003\">I was a teenage evangelical, from about 13 to 20, living in a Catholic charismatic world \u2014 first in Detroit, then in Ann Arbor, which had one of the big charismatic communities along with Notre Dame and Marquette.<\/p>\n<p data-start=\"5005\" data-end=\"5316\">When I left, I thought a lot about what had happened to me. It wasn\u2019t only a will to know, but also a will not to know. Nietzsche called this the \u201cwill to ignorance.\u201d I became fascinated by the desire not to know \u2014 when it\u2019s bad for us, but also how it can play a beneficial psychological or even social role.<\/p>\n<p data-start=\"5318\" data-end=\"5662\">The book begins with Plato\u2019s Cave, but I rewrite the story. In my version, the freed man climbs into the sunlight with a young boy. The boy struggles. He misses dreaming and fantasizing. He says: <em data-start=\"5514\" data-end=\"5660\">\u201cI don\u2019t want to be here. I have no friends. The lights are on all the time. We know too much for love, because we fully understand each other.\u201d<\/em><\/p>\n<p data-start=\"5664\" data-end=\"5708\">He begs to go back. And so the man agrees.<\/p>\n<p data-start=\"5710\" data-end=\"6032\">This version suggests Plato didn\u2019t show us the whole deck. There may be a healthy desire not to be exposed to everything. From there, I trace how our wills to know and not know play out \u2014 in Oedipus, in myths, in nostalgia, in poetry. It\u2019s a ramble, really, through different ways the will to ignorance shapes our lives.<\/p>\n<h2 data-start=\"6034\" data-end=\"6058\">Elizabeth L\u2019Arriv\u00e9e<\/h2>\n<p data-start=\"6059\" data-end=\"6307\">One final question. Where do you see today\u2019s university students? Are they like Glaucon in Plato\u2019s <em data-start=\"6158\" data-end=\"6168\">Republic<\/em> \u2014 attached to their civic education and politics \u2014 or more like the characters in your book, struggling between knowing and not knowing?<\/p>\n<h2 data-start=\"6309\" data-end=\"6324\">Mark Lilla<\/h2>\n<p data-start=\"6325\" data-end=\"6543\"><img decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignleft wp-image-1870 lazyload\" data-src=\"https:\/\/www.furman.edu\/academics\/tocqueville-program\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/67\/2025\/10\/Screenshot-2025-10-03-at-9.21.30-AM-686x1024.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"300\" height=\"448\" data-srcset=\"https:\/\/www.furman.edu\/academics\/tocqueville-program\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/67\/2025\/10\/Screenshot-2025-10-03-at-9.21.30-AM-686x1024.png 686w, https:\/\/www.furman.edu\/academics\/tocqueville-program\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/67\/2025\/10\/Screenshot-2025-10-03-at-9.21.30-AM-514x768.png 514w, https:\/\/www.furman.edu\/academics\/tocqueville-program\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/67\/2025\/10\/Screenshot-2025-10-03-at-9.21.30-AM-768x1147.png 768w, https:\/\/www.furman.edu\/academics\/tocqueville-program\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/67\/2025\/10\/Screenshot-2025-10-03-at-9.21.30-AM-343x512.png 343w, https:\/\/www.furman.edu\/academics\/tocqueville-program\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/67\/2025\/10\/Screenshot-2025-10-03-at-9.21.30-AM.png 778w\" data-sizes=\"(max-width: 300px) 100vw, 300px\" src=\"data:image\/svg+xml;base64,PHN2ZyB3aWR0aD0iMSIgaGVpZ2h0PSIxIiB4bWxucz0iaHR0cDovL3d3dy53My5vcmcvMjAwMC9zdmciPjwvc3ZnPg==\" style=\"--smush-placeholder-width: 300px; --smush-placeholder-aspect-ratio: 300\/448;\" \/><\/p>\n<p data-start=\"6325\" data-end=\"6543\">That\u2019s a\u00a0great question. My book begins with an epigraph from George Eliot\u2019s <em data-start=\"6402\" data-end=\"6418\">Daniel Deronda<\/em>: <em data-start=\"6420\" data-end=\"6541\">\u201cThere is all this talk about the power of knowledge, but who has duly considered the power of ignorance in our lives?\u201d<\/em><\/p>\n<p data-start=\"6545\" data-end=\"6618\">That captures what I see. Ignorance is not just absence \u2014 it\u2019s a force.<\/p>\n<p data-start=\"6620\" data-end=\"7032\">So the challenge of education is pacing: introducing the world in such a way that students don\u2019t rush ahead and collapse when they lose bearings. Rousseau\u2019s <em data-start=\"6777\" data-end=\"6784\">\u00c9mile<\/em> is all about this. The \u201cProfession of Faith of the Savoyard Vicar\u201d describes how to overcome despair when faith collapses. Rousseau structures <em data-start=\"6928\" data-end=\"6935\">\u00c9mile<\/em> so that by the end, the student is open to knowledge but morally grounded enough to handle it.<\/p>\n<p data-start=\"7034\" data-end=\"7113\">That\u2019s what education needs to do. And I worry it\u2019s not thought about enough.<\/p>\n<h2 data-start=\"7115\" data-end=\"7132\">Closing Note<\/h2>\n<p data-start=\"7134\" data-end=\"7361\">The Tocqueville Center was honored to host Mark Lilla for these conversations. His reflections on Tocqueville, civic friendship, and the will to ignorance remind us of the enduring challenges of democratic life and education.<\/p>\n<p data-start=\"7363\" data-end=\"7575\">Our next program, <strong data-start=\"7381\" data-end=\"7422\">\u201cReligion and the American Founding,\u201d<\/strong> will feature Mark Noll (Notre Dame) and Caitlin Chess (Duke) on <strong data-start=\"7487\" data-end=\"7502\">October 7\u20138<\/strong>. Join us as we continue the work of free inquiry and civic reflection.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>By Elizabeth L&#8217;Arrivee In September 2025, the Tocqueville Center hosted Columbia University professor and noted public intellectual Dr. Mark Lilla for the Walters Memorial Lecture and On Discourse series. Following [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"featured_media":1869,"template":"","update-categories":[6],"class_list":["post-1866","furman-update","type-furman-update","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","furman-update-category-interviews"],"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.furman.edu\/academics\/tocqueville-program\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/lectures\/1866","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.furman.edu\/academics\/tocqueville-program\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/lectures"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.furman.edu\/academics\/tocqueville-program\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/furman-update"}],"version-history":[{"count":7,"href":"https:\/\/www.furman.edu\/academics\/tocqueville-program\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/lectures\/1866\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":1878,"href":"https:\/\/www.furman.edu\/academics\/tocqueville-program\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/lectures\/1866\/revisions\/1878"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.furman.edu\/academics\/tocqueville-program\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/1869"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.furman.edu\/academics\/tocqueville-program\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=1866"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"furman-update-category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.furman.edu\/academics\/tocqueville-program\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/update-categories?post=1866"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}